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intraspectiveSoooo, I was a bit of a tactless nit during the Open Forum. I think we can agree on that? For which I seriously apologize to everyone I might have hurt. And, after a few days of talking it out with other people (and getting over a cold, alas, for colds don't care about online activity), I think I’ve managed to articulate what my concerns are and just wanted to post this as a more comprehensive explanation of my viewpoint, and to hopefully make up for any unintentional hurt I caused during the Open Forum.
I have hopefully managed to make my opinion clearer, and I'll do my level best do seriously better at giving everyone else’s viewpoints even consideration.
Characterization
Fandom is a pan-fandom game, and I don't think there's anyone that would disagree with the fact that it makes the characters the most important part of the game—far more than time period, or location, for instance.
I can't speak for anyone else, but to me that makes the characters by far the most interesting part of the game. I love seeing how they come to life in the game: what makes them laugh, what makes them cry, what makes them rage. I adore it when they're messy, when they're frail, when they pick up the pieces of themselves.
I love it when they deal with the struggle to acclimatize themselves to Fandom when Fandom is different from the world they're used to. Not all of their cultures and worlds in play are ones with the same values as our real world, after all. And not all characters think and feel the same way as what is politically correct for our world. That’s part of what makes them so fascinating to me. It's one of the major reasons I love the game.
All of them have different sticky points and topics and questions. People are who they are, yes. But they’re also products of their home and culture. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, anyone? I tend to view the characters like that. Fish out of water.
Extrapolation, answers drawn from their personalities, from their familial situations, from their personal problems, from their world. All of these form their views. Every character has these lines—they’re what makes them them (and amazing).
What I find helps with fleshing out my own character is to take a whole bunch of questions that might never even come up in the game. It gives me a more concrete perspective as to how my character's mind works.
Here are some of the questions I use when I'm thinking about perspective: Where do they draw the line? What do they consider right and wrong? What repels them? What fascinates them?
This is just a samplingalbeit a long one of the questions I like to use:
Sexuality: Are they gay? Bi? Straight? Questioning? How would they react to being hit on by a girl? How would they react to meeting a male-to-female trans-gendered person, or a female-to-male one? How would they react if that trans-gendered person hit on them? How would it be different, to them, between a trans-gendered person hitting on them, and a non-trans-gendered person? How would they react if a trans-gendered person hit on them, and they dated, and they didn’t find out that they were trans-gendered for a few months? How would they react if a guy they dated turned out to have been using them as only a beard?
A person being okay with their friend being gay often reacts differently to different issues in the spectrum of sexuality and trust, right? There are plenty of people, I'd estimate, who are good with say, girls being lesbians, but think guys liking guys is awful-icky-gross. Is that my opinion? Seriously not. But it could be a character’s, right? And that could be interesting to explore as they overcome it.
Prejudice for being a ‘different’: How do they feel about blacks? Asians? White privilege? How do they feel about those who hate them for being a different? How do they react? Do they act out, or do they shut it up inside? A lot of people who are hated for something turn out hating something else because it makes them feel better. Are there some ‘differences’ that are more ‘acceptable’ than others? Are there mutations that gross them out? That scare them? What are they and why? How would they react if a friend had been concealing a mutation that wigged them out and suddenly showed it?
Disabled: How do they feel about the blind? The deaf? Autism? Down-syndrome? What are the differences in their opinion between someone who lost a limb in an accident, and someone who was born that way?
Yes, I… maybe spend too much time thinking about these questions. But I seriously find them fun to consider.
Abuse: What’s their stance on abuse? Emotional? Physical? Non-contact. What’s their opinion of children having to work to feed themselves, or of parents who are so out of touch with reality that they spend their days in a bottle/drug induced haze. Does their opinion differ depending on the sob story? What do they think of alcoholics? Of drug users? What’s their opinion on legalizing certain drugs? On addictions in general?
What sort of punishments do they think rapists deserve to get? Murderers? What do they consider to be a ‘good’ insanity plea? What makes their heart twist on television? What do they watch on television? What bores them? What excites them? What do they watch as a guilty pleasure? What’s their stance on the pro-choice/pro-life debate? What do they think of religions? Which ones do they like, which ones don’t they like? Why? What about agnostics? Atheism? Asexuality? On sushi, on polygamy, on monogamy, on long-term diseases, on short-term illnesses. On calling into work because they were out too late last night—would they tough it out, or call in? Soda or pop? Long hair or short?
I find that, in my experience, all of these questions are ones that everyone has an opinion on, whether it comes into play or not. Personally, I find that knowing the answers to these questions helps all of my characters attitudes show through depending on how a conversation goes even if the exact topic isn't addressed. Finding those differences is really fun for me, I like knowing what makes characters tick.
Being different makes people interesting, in my honest opinion. The same goes for characters. And the differences are more than skin deep. It’s not about powers, or special skills, or anything.
It’s about them, who they are, and their myriad of differences. That's the most important bit to me, and I think that's what I failed the most to get across during the Open Forum.
Sensitivity
You know, it looks like the general consensus from the Open Forum is that people all think that conflict is the totally fun and dandy in theory but really, I'm not seeing much of it in the game. I guess I wonder if that's because people are afraid to drum up conflict IC for fear of it being taken as an attack OOC? I'd love to see more clashes in-character, myself, but then I admit to playing at least one character who thrives on IC conflict.
I mean, it totally makes sense that people would want to get along, definitely. I'm so not saying that it doesn't, I'm just thinking that maybe, if the lines of OOC communication were open enough that it would be—nice, if we could have more conflict, and maybe even minor organic conflict that doesn't need to be double and triple checked.
To me, really, I think this because a lot of our characters are teenagers. They're people who, in my opinion, would put feet out of line, trip up, fall on their faces, offend people, give them the wrong impression, lie to them, mess with their heads. They'd also hold them while they cry, listen when they talk, and offer advice both good and bad. But they'd mess up too.
I’m not good at OOC contact. I freely and fully admit it. My preferred method of discussing things, if I feel it needs to be, is through e-mail because it lets me take a step back and keeps my (unreasonable) terror of talking to people at one-remove.
In short: I am stark raving terrified of most of you.
I am, however, around frequently, I thread fairly frequently, and I’ll play with anyone and everyone. And I just think it would be really awesome if there were more freedom for IC conflicts, however minor they might be without the chance of it causing a lot of stress on an OOC level. (Oreo theft! Use of a hairbrush that's not your character's!)
According to the Fandom High website, there are 309 characters currently being played in Fandom. Some of these are inactive, some of these are alumni, and some haven't been added yet.
309. That's a crazy awesome number, guys.
I do think that maybe, though, it's a bit unrealistic to think of a community of that size as being one where everyone gets along perfectly. Little spats and tiffs are normal with friends, with family, with co-workers—and I'd love to see a bit more of that in the game.
Polarization
I phrased it poorly during the Open Forum. I admit that and am sorry for it.
In the Forum I said there were two main trends, groups, that I had been seeing emerge. I labeled them the 'happy shiny crowd' and the 'cool and bitchy crowd'.
It's not something that was to single out characters, to make the players feel bad, or anything like that. In fact, there's characters in both groups who I deeply enjoy and read all of their threads because I love the way they've been fleshed out.
And I, yeah, seriously could have found a better way to put it. Rereading it, it didn't get across the point that I was trying, and very much failing to make. I'm definitely sorry for that, and for anyone I hurt because of it. What I meant, is that I love to see it when characters who are polarized like that still have room to grow as people, and that was what I was trying to put out there during the open forum.
And, honestly, some characters just aren't going to be angsty and traumatized—like Yakko, for instance. Prince Edward comes to mind as well. Not to mention the fact that no character, in my opinion, needs to even be angsty and traumatized to be a well done character.
Growth is through conflict whether it be small or large, difficult or relatively painless. Growth and development are important, in my opinion. People generally aren't static, you know? They grow and change, so to me, characters maybe should too.
Out of a courtesy, from trying to be nice to each other, I honestly think we've maybe gone too far the other way to the point where we're all a bit worried that all conflict has to be scripted just in case it upsets someone. I just think it'd be nice if it wasn't that bit of a worry, you know? For the small stuff.
I mean, when it all comes down to it, this is just my opinion. However, I seriously think that this is important and hope that it'll be considered as a valid point of view.
If I'm coming across as far too blunt, it’s not intentional, or out of dislike, or hate, or anything like that. It’s because I love and adore the game and want to see it flourish. I think you're all pretty awesome, really. I just also think everyone (myself included) can do better.
And I’d dearly love to see what everyone can really do.
[Open for any discussion or comments, of course. I’m at work so if I’m slow, I beg your patience, and if you’d rather contact me privately I’m reachable through PM or at Lythis_sa_Iyani at yahoo dot co dot uk. (AIM is bloooocked at work.)]
I have hopefully managed to make my opinion clearer, and I'll do my level best do seriously better at giving everyone else’s viewpoints even consideration.
Characterization
Fandom is a pan-fandom game, and I don't think there's anyone that would disagree with the fact that it makes the characters the most important part of the game—far more than time period, or location, for instance.
I can't speak for anyone else, but to me that makes the characters by far the most interesting part of the game. I love seeing how they come to life in the game: what makes them laugh, what makes them cry, what makes them rage. I adore it when they're messy, when they're frail, when they pick up the pieces of themselves.
I love it when they deal with the struggle to acclimatize themselves to Fandom when Fandom is different from the world they're used to. Not all of their cultures and worlds in play are ones with the same values as our real world, after all. And not all characters think and feel the same way as what is politically correct for our world. That’s part of what makes them so fascinating to me. It's one of the major reasons I love the game.
All of them have different sticky points and topics and questions. People are who they are, yes. But they’re also products of their home and culture. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, anyone? I tend to view the characters like that. Fish out of water.
Extrapolation, answers drawn from their personalities, from their familial situations, from their personal problems, from their world. All of these form their views. Every character has these lines—they’re what makes them them (and amazing).
What I find helps with fleshing out my own character is to take a whole bunch of questions that might never even come up in the game. It gives me a more concrete perspective as to how my character's mind works.
Here are some of the questions I use when I'm thinking about perspective: Where do they draw the line? What do they consider right and wrong? What repels them? What fascinates them?
This is just a sampling
Sexuality: Are they gay? Bi? Straight? Questioning? How would they react to being hit on by a girl? How would they react to meeting a male-to-female trans-gendered person, or a female-to-male one? How would they react if that trans-gendered person hit on them? How would it be different, to them, between a trans-gendered person hitting on them, and a non-trans-gendered person? How would they react if a trans-gendered person hit on them, and they dated, and they didn’t find out that they were trans-gendered for a few months? How would they react if a guy they dated turned out to have been using them as only a beard?
A person being okay with their friend being gay often reacts differently to different issues in the spectrum of sexuality and trust, right? There are plenty of people, I'd estimate, who are good with say, girls being lesbians, but think guys liking guys is awful-icky-gross. Is that my opinion? Seriously not. But it could be a character’s, right? And that could be interesting to explore as they overcome it.
Prejudice for being a ‘different’: How do they feel about blacks? Asians? White privilege? How do they feel about those who hate them for being a different? How do they react? Do they act out, or do they shut it up inside? A lot of people who are hated for something turn out hating something else because it makes them feel better. Are there some ‘differences’ that are more ‘acceptable’ than others? Are there mutations that gross them out? That scare them? What are they and why? How would they react if a friend had been concealing a mutation that wigged them out and suddenly showed it?
Disabled: How do they feel about the blind? The deaf? Autism? Down-syndrome? What are the differences in their opinion between someone who lost a limb in an accident, and someone who was born that way?
Yes, I… maybe spend too much time thinking about these questions. But I seriously find them fun to consider.
Abuse: What’s their stance on abuse? Emotional? Physical? Non-contact. What’s their opinion of children having to work to feed themselves, or of parents who are so out of touch with reality that they spend their days in a bottle/drug induced haze. Does their opinion differ depending on the sob story? What do they think of alcoholics? Of drug users? What’s their opinion on legalizing certain drugs? On addictions in general?
What sort of punishments do they think rapists deserve to get? Murderers? What do they consider to be a ‘good’ insanity plea? What makes their heart twist on television? What do they watch on television? What bores them? What excites them? What do they watch as a guilty pleasure? What’s their stance on the pro-choice/pro-life debate? What do they think of religions? Which ones do they like, which ones don’t they like? Why? What about agnostics? Atheism? Asexuality? On sushi, on polygamy, on monogamy, on long-term diseases, on short-term illnesses. On calling into work because they were out too late last night—would they tough it out, or call in? Soda or pop? Long hair or short?
I find that, in my experience, all of these questions are ones that everyone has an opinion on, whether it comes into play or not. Personally, I find that knowing the answers to these questions helps all of my characters attitudes show through depending on how a conversation goes even if the exact topic isn't addressed. Finding those differences is really fun for me, I like knowing what makes characters tick.
Being different makes people interesting, in my honest opinion. The same goes for characters. And the differences are more than skin deep. It’s not about powers, or special skills, or anything.
It’s about them, who they are, and their myriad of differences. That's the most important bit to me, and I think that's what I failed the most to get across during the Open Forum.
Sensitivity
You know, it looks like the general consensus from the Open Forum is that people all think that conflict is the totally fun and dandy in theory but really, I'm not seeing much of it in the game. I guess I wonder if that's because people are afraid to drum up conflict IC for fear of it being taken as an attack OOC? I'd love to see more clashes in-character, myself, but then I admit to playing at least one character who thrives on IC conflict.
I mean, it totally makes sense that people would want to get along, definitely. I'm so not saying that it doesn't, I'm just thinking that maybe, if the lines of OOC communication were open enough that it would be—nice, if we could have more conflict, and maybe even minor organic conflict that doesn't need to be double and triple checked.
To me, really, I think this because a lot of our characters are teenagers. They're people who, in my opinion, would put feet out of line, trip up, fall on their faces, offend people, give them the wrong impression, lie to them, mess with their heads. They'd also hold them while they cry, listen when they talk, and offer advice both good and bad. But they'd mess up too.
I’m not good at OOC contact. I freely and fully admit it. My preferred method of discussing things, if I feel it needs to be, is through e-mail because it lets me take a step back and keeps my (unreasonable) terror of talking to people at one-remove.
In short: I am stark raving terrified of most of you.
I am, however, around frequently, I thread fairly frequently, and I’ll play with anyone and everyone. And I just think it would be really awesome if there were more freedom for IC conflicts, however minor they might be without the chance of it causing a lot of stress on an OOC level. (Oreo theft! Use of a hairbrush that's not your character's!)
According to the Fandom High website, there are 309 characters currently being played in Fandom. Some of these are inactive, some of these are alumni, and some haven't been added yet.
309. That's a crazy awesome number, guys.
I do think that maybe, though, it's a bit unrealistic to think of a community of that size as being one where everyone gets along perfectly. Little spats and tiffs are normal with friends, with family, with co-workers—and I'd love to see a bit more of that in the game.
Polarization
I phrased it poorly during the Open Forum. I admit that and am sorry for it.
In the Forum I said there were two main trends, groups, that I had been seeing emerge. I labeled them the 'happy shiny crowd' and the 'cool and bitchy crowd'.
It's not something that was to single out characters, to make the players feel bad, or anything like that. In fact, there's characters in both groups who I deeply enjoy and read all of their threads because I love the way they've been fleshed out.
And I, yeah, seriously could have found a better way to put it. Rereading it, it didn't get across the point that I was trying, and very much failing to make. I'm definitely sorry for that, and for anyone I hurt because of it. What I meant, is that I love to see it when characters who are polarized like that still have room to grow as people, and that was what I was trying to put out there during the open forum.
And, honestly, some characters just aren't going to be angsty and traumatized—like Yakko, for instance. Prince Edward comes to mind as well. Not to mention the fact that no character, in my opinion, needs to even be angsty and traumatized to be a well done character.
Growth is through conflict whether it be small or large, difficult or relatively painless. Growth and development are important, in my opinion. People generally aren't static, you know? They grow and change, so to me, characters maybe should too.
Out of a courtesy, from trying to be nice to each other, I honestly think we've maybe gone too far the other way to the point where we're all a bit worried that all conflict has to be scripted just in case it upsets someone. I just think it'd be nice if it wasn't that bit of a worry, you know? For the small stuff.
I mean, when it all comes down to it, this is just my opinion. However, I seriously think that this is important and hope that it'll be considered as a valid point of view.
If I'm coming across as far too blunt, it’s not intentional, or out of dislike, or hate, or anything like that. It’s because I love and adore the game and want to see it flourish. I think you're all pretty awesome, really. I just also think everyone (myself included) can do better.
And I’d dearly love to see what everyone can really do.
[Open for any discussion or comments, of course. I’m at work so if I’m slow, I beg your patience, and if you’d rather contact me privately I’m reachable through PM or at Lythis_sa_Iyani at yahoo dot co dot uk. (AIM is bloooocked at work.)]
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no subject
Date: 2009-08-21 03:30 pm (UTC)I guess I wonder if that's because people are afraid to drum up conflict IC for fear of it being taken as an attack OOC?
This is extremely true, on both sides. People do occasionally use more antagonistic characters as 'weapons', like
The thing is, as much as I -- and I'm not going to speak for everyone here, but I'd hope it was a general consensus -- enjoy conflict and character development using said conflict as a vehicle, I also don't like being caught off-guard, nor do I like feeling like my character's been attacked and the player doesn't understand why I may have a problem with that. I'm all for having Sookie steal Kaylee's wrench and them have a little bitchfight over it (provided I talk to Kaylee's player and make sure wrench-modding is kosher, and that should be fairly easy to do, heh) -- I'm not okay with Sookie going up to Kaylee and calling her a whore and then storming out so she gets the last word, without any warning, and then in this little conversation with myself, Sookie's player insists that "that's just how she acts -- how can we grow from this?"
I have limited time with my computer, and with this game. As much as I like conflict and not everything constantly being happy-fun-yay, I also like some warning when things in that vein might happen, because I'm not always prepared to sacrifice my character's good mood for a day when I only have four days a week to play. I'm not sure how much sense any of this made, but I just wanted to toss it out there. I don't think we have a shortage of small, insular conflicts in the game, and we never have a shortage of large, external ones thanks to the nature of Fandom. But I do agree that more little interpersonal stuff could be nice -- but OOC communication needs to go hand-in-hand with that, for everyone's comfort. Just my two cents.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-21 04:13 pm (UTC)I do, in Ino’s posts, try to be clear when she’s getting upset, or is likely to be snappish, or waspish. I’ll have to be better, my understanding is, at giving warning when she’s going to do or say something deliberately offensive. My previous understanding, for posts at least where she’s being snappish and snarly in her narrative was the fact that, if she snapped at another character, that the player was at least aware of the likelihood of it happening. A post with cranky narrative, after all, to me, isn’t an indicator of a fluffy thread?
I guess I’m just confused at how much warning a cranky character has to give? Should there be an OOC ping, if someone tags the post that’s narratived very crankily? Or mood-swingy? I’m just not sure, I guess, where to draw the line? I’m probably making it more complicated than it needs to be, but that’s how I look at it, and since that seems to be a potential problem, I’m not sure how to express this, I'm probably messing it up...
no subject
Date: 2009-08-21 04:42 pm (UTC)Cranky narrative to me serves as a really good warning; you knew what you were getting into by pinging into the post. If you think it's going to escalate, I tend to err on the side of caution and send an email about how Aravis is about to bite off so-and-so's head or whatever.
Mostly what I'm talking about, above, are instances where a cranky character pings into a peaceful post spoiling for a fight, and the player's not prepared to deal with having that hurled at their character. I think this is an instance where discretion needs to be used, personally, and OOC communication is kind of a must. I'll never be like "Ugh, your character's cranky, I don't want them there!" or something, but I do like the heads up rather than having to deal with my kid being emo all day as a result of being blindsided.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-21 05:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-21 03:38 pm (UTC)Are you seriously saying it was a good time for you? Not to take anything public or revive a fight that we've settled, but my general impression from your overall tone in email at the time was that you weren't any happier than I was.
I'm not opposed to all conflict; I think conflict that helps "show, don't tell" or serves for character development is pretty freaking awesome. But random arguments of the type it sounds like you're talking about, where no one learns anything (except "wow, different worlds are different!") and everyone just stomps away and sulks, don't do much for me as a writer except put me in a bad mood. I'm not trying to write only shiny happy happiness, but at the same time, this is for fun and me being in a bad mood is not much fun.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-21 04:13 pm (UTC)IC arguments are good, I do think so, but not when they spill over that badly and no one is having fun. On an IC level, Ino felt that it was a hold-over to make her look bad from her previous argument with Tyler about her powers. Ino’s letter to both Tyler and Ghanima expresses this, and her concerns as best she can. On an OOC level I felt like my explanations and attempts to discuss it were being pushed aside in favour of the previous fight they’d had.
I wasn’t happy, Ino lost support that she badly needs/needed and honestly now I’ve been worried over pinging any of your characters with any of mine because I don’t want any more fallout coming through. (I love your characters, I do, but I don’t want to upset you any more, or upset me any more either, so I’m not sure what to do about it.)
A fight on that level is no picnic, no fun for anyone, I agree. It was never meant to go that way—Ino figured she’d walk from the fight and that would be it. That’s honestly what I figured as well. I am sorry it blew up that way, and no, you’re right, I don’t want to be in a bad mood because of an IC random fight.
Ino, on the other hand, is all about picking fights and such. They tend to satisfy her in a very teenage girl sort of way, I guess. She’s an emotive, aggressive character with some weird blocks and I try to be clear in her posts when she’s being snippy and likely to head aggressive. I don’t always succeed, no doubt, but it is something I try to do. The people she flips out on the most are ones that I trust enough to tell me when she’s going too far. Because I, at least, never mean it as an OOC attack. For me it’s a purely IC situation.
Reading the general response, I’ll have to get better at figuring out where I have to draw the line, but I have never ever intended to hurt or upset or throw people off their game.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-21 04:25 pm (UTC)I do want to play with you, though. Tyler and Ino's relationship might not be completely salvageable, but I'm willing to ping with you anytime.
I tend to figure that my characters may be teenagers, but I'm not one. I think there are ways to show surliness and immaturity without it spilling over in an OOC way, or in a way likely to wreck anyone's day.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-21 04:38 pm (UTC)^^; I don't know if it's completely salvageable either, but that's something I think that, time and--well, seeing how it goes will tell? For your other characters, though, I will keep that in mind. (...and that means I should probably have Ino talk to Romeo at some point, so he doesn't forget she exists, la. Or thinks she's forgotten that he exists.)
This is true. I guess putting it into practice is just going to take me some more work.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-21 05:17 pm (UTC)And you're right. Time will tell, and Romeo should probably say hi to Ino even though he has like nothing going on these days. And Jack needs to ping to your on-island girls again sometime. I'd love to play Tara off Hinata except I'm afraid they'd suffer mutual stutter mortification and very quickly decide to go be shy somewhere else :-).
no subject
Date: 2009-08-21 05:53 pm (UTC)Jack totally should talk to any of them! Wheee. And Ino will babble at Romeo no matter what, hahaha. Poor Romeo! Maybe he needs a pet?
no subject
Date: 2009-08-21 03:43 pm (UTC)And I wanted to respond to this: And I just think it would be really awesome if there were more freedom for IC conflicts, however minor they might be without the chance of it causing a lot of stress on an OOC level. (Oreo theft! Use of a hairbrush that's not your character's!)
The problem I see with that is with over 300 characters in game from however many fandoms, you (the generic you) have NO idea what might be poking at a larger issue for a character. Stealing cookies may not seem like a big deal to you, but maybe that character was bullied by someone in canon who stole their cookies every day at lunch and having your character steal their cookies will trigger something for them that the mun may not want to deal with.
The other problem is that you (again, generic) never know what other people have planned for their characters. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with organic conflict. Sometimes characters just don't get along and that's fine. Joan and Turtle are like that. They're what I would call frenemies. And that all developed IC and was completely unplanned though after it happened, Skylie & I did discuss it.
OOC communication is of the utmost importance especially in a game this large that spans the globe. As much as we try to keep time linear, things end up being preplayed or slowplayed because of time zones and real lives. Throwing in random conflict could mess up someone's plans/other threads in progress and that's just not cool in my opinion.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-21 04:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-21 04:36 pm (UTC)And if someone had an issue with that for whatever reason, I'd say it's just as much on them to contact you and say "Hey, my character has cookie stealing related issues, would you mind changing that".
But really it all boils down to OOC communication being important. Yes, it can be scary or intimidating to contact someone you don't know on an OOC level, but I think that we're all pretty nice people around here and I can't imagine anyone being mean if you contacted them about something.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-21 04:47 pm (UTC)I never intended to imply that anywhere would I never give anyone no option of turning something down. Soooo not my intention, I'm sorry for the confusion there. Of course characters have a choice and should be given a choice, totally. I'm just not feeling, I guess, that there's a lot of--freedom to even be that 'active' on another character? Like, in writing 'Ino attempted to snatch Claire's hairbrush from her hand', I guess, lately, I just feel that even writing that is frowned on? Even though it gives the other player freedom to well, keep their hairbrush or not. If that makes sense?
Thank you for that, and I will definitely be trying to be more pro-active in my communication in the future.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-21 04:56 pm (UTC)I'd say that it depends on the relationship between the characters and what's going on in the scene to drive that kind of action. I mean, with Ino and Joan's conversation about Liir, there was a clear IC reason for Ino to be a little cranky and if Joan would have blown off her concerns, I would see a reason for that to escalate.
But if Claire and Ino were changing after gym class and Claire was brushing her hair and Ino came up for no reason whatsoever and tried to grab her brush, I'd kind of boggle and wonder what was going on.
Veronica & Tyler, for example, have an antagonistic relationship. So when Tyler tagged into V's gym post the other day, they traded verbal barbs that were both IC for them individually and for their relationship. And they were definitely things that V would not have said to someone she just met.
So, I guess the best guideline to apply is to keep it IC for the character and the relationship that exists with whomever they are interacting with.
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Date: 2009-08-21 05:49 pm (UTC)Absolutely though, you're right with it being on an IC relationship sort of basis. In this situation, if Ino wanted Claire's hairbrush she'd be way more likely to go 'hey, can I borrow that for a minute?' because they're not at a point where she would. You make total sense, and thank you. I'll definitely be thinking about this more!
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Date: 2009-08-21 03:51 pm (UTC)I’m not good at OOC contact. I freely and fully admit it. My preferred method of discussing things, if I feel it needs to be, is through e-mail because it lets me take a step back and keeps my (unreasonable) terror of talking to people at one-remove.
Trust me, you're not alone in that. Unless I know a person well, I'm shy and nervous as hell about emailing them (let along pinging them for RP). But sometimes you just gotta suck it up and hit that Send button. IM can be too immediate, but email lets you compose your thoughts and not expect instantaneous replies.
Anyway, I still can't quite grasp how you're seeing things. Just about every character that I follow closely in Fandom, including my own, have changed a great deal over their "career" here. That was never more evident than when I was going back and reading old posts for the BDE vamp!verse. And I don't see the bit about pre-established relationships eliminating the need for other relationships to develop. I mean, with Raven, Jen and I talked about her being friends with Joan, but her relationship with Liir developed because he was assigned as her big sib. Friendships with Karla and Dinah weren't planned, nor was
fangirlingher student-teacher relationship with Anakin, for for that matter, with Max, either. They just all evolved organically. Some people may start with relationships with their canonmates or planning to be BFFs with an OC good friend, but I don't think any of those exclude developing new friendships with other students. I honestly don't think those walls are as tough to crack as you think they are.And I just think it would be really awesome if there were more freedom for IC conflicts, however minor they might be without the chance of it causing a lot of stress on an OOC level. (Oreo theft! Use of a hairbrush that's not your character's!)
I'm all for IC conflict (witness Bel & Logan or Bel & Anakin or Wyatt & Johnny or gods help Chuck the next time he bumps into Raven ;), but -- some people (myself included) have been burned by people taking actions without OOCly clearing them first, and there's always the possibility of triggering a character in a way you never expected. It all goes back to trust. If I know the player well, then I trust they're not going to go somewhere unpleasant if their character steals my hairbrush or whatever. If I don't know the person, then there's that niggling fear they're going to spit on said hairbrush or something lame. So that's where that OOC poke comes in real handy, as does phrasing. "Ino tried to sneakily grab Raven's hairbrush" allows me the choice of "Raven didn't notice Ino's oh-so-sneaky theft" or "Raven, having suffered hairbrush trauma in the past, demoned out and snatched her hairbrush out of Ino's reach." Or...something.
Anyway. Babbling done now.
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Date: 2009-08-21 04:43 pm (UTC)And it's just something that I've noticed, mostly in the half year or so, it has been feeling like it's harder for me to make IC connections with characters and I have no real idea of why. They're still talking to people (though Hinata needs to get out more) and such it's just been feeling like that wall is getting thicker.
I guess I didn't phrase it properly in my post? I never ever meant to imply that say, Ino would be grabbing Raven's hairbrush without any input from the character. I always write things like 'she attempted to [whatever action here] him' or along those lines, I do try to phrase it so there's always an out.
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Date: 2009-08-21 09:43 pm (UTC)I'm not sure why you think other players don't think about these things? I've had lengthy conversations with other players about random bits of minutiae, like how Spira's low birth rate might influence the Yevonite church's position on premarital sex and pregnancy. I did Wiki research for a few hours to determine where Alex should have gone to undergrad and law school. I like filling in the blanks. I imagine most players do.
Prejudice for being a ‘different’: How do they feel about blacks? Asians? White privilege?
Lizzy is from 1813 or thereabouts, and I decided not to make her a raving bigot. Minor blips of shedding one's prejudice are one thing, but to have Lizzy ask Zoe why they let a (insert slur here) run the school -- not interesting to me.
You know, it looks like the general consensus from the Open Forum is that people all think that conflict is the totally fun and dandy in theory but really, I'm not seeing much of it in the game. I guess I wonder if that's because people are afraid to drum up conflict IC for fear of it being taken as an attack OOC? I'd love to see more clashes in-character, myself, but then I admit to playing at least one character who thrives on IC conflict.
I think conflict is fine and dandy when I am not completely blindsided by it. If a person drops into my post, takes one comment the wrong way, and then screams at my character and takes off, I'm going to think that that player was causing drama just for the hell of it.
Your character thrives on IC conflict. Many characters don't. That might be perfectly IC for them. Some people go out of their way to avoid conflict. Someone who doesn't thrive on conflict is going to back away from a character who does. That's still IC.
You said yourself that Ino thrives on conflict, and picks fights. I've seen examples of Ino becoming upset with someone where I can't even follow what set her off. Just because a conflict is organic, or because Ino has decided to pick a fight, doesn't mean the other player is going to appreciate the sudden left turn. I don't like scenes where the other player has decided, come hell or high water, that there will be conflict, and crashes the scene into a tree.
Also: just because a conflict allows for growth and so on on one side, that doesn't mean it does for both. For an admittedly extreme example: let's say Ino's having a miserable day, and stomping back to her room when she passes Elena's door. Elena has a roompost of her blaring some loud, cheerful pop music. This sets Ino off. So Ino storms into Elena's room, bitches her out, breaks some things, and leaves. Later on, Ino realizes that she shouldn't take her anger out on random people, so she goes to Elena and grudgingly apologizes. This conflict was interesting, and gave some room for growth, for Ino. Elena, IC, didn't learn a damn thing, except 'I should lock my door more often.' As a player, you might be thinking, 'awesome, Ino learned a real lesson there, that was a really cool scene' whereas I resent that my character was just a cardboard prop in your character's plot arc. You might be thinking 'yay, IC conflict' while it left a bad taste in my mouth.
I mentioned somewhere in the OF that antagonistic characters require more OOC delicacy, not less. Like E said earlier: my characters are teenagers, but I'm not.
I just also think everyone (myself included) can do better.
This, added with the intro bits about characterization, makes this feel like one big lecture about how we, the other players of Fandom, are not living up to your standards. We're not good enough players. We aren't as committed to characterization. We aren't suiting your needs, so we should all work harder and change our playing styles to better fit what you'd like to see out of the game. I'm choosing to believe you didn't mean it like that, in the interests of good faith, or else I wouldn't have bothered replying at all. But the implication bugs.
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Date: 2009-08-21 10:17 pm (UTC)I could say more, but I'm not sure if what I'd say would come off as me trying to lecture you or not, so I'd rather not when you're feeling, already, that I've been doing so. I'm not trying to start a fight, or to further a fight, or to say I'm better than anyone else. My opinion is only that—mine. That's all. I don't mean it as a lecture or anything like that at all.
I'm very sorry if that offends you, or comes off as a lecture, as that wasn't my intent at all in expressing my viewpoint.